I am giving way to a response posted by a certain Kay for my article entitled “Are Other Christian Not True Churches?”.
I appreciate the responses to my comment and the spirit of Christian correction in which they are given. I understand your passion to defend the truth as you perceive it, as this similar passion is the same love I have for the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Though not all of the posts directed to me were polite and on-tangent, thank you.
Yup, I do appreciate Mr. Soriano’s insights on non-doctrinal issues, particularly his premium on basic Christian values.
I felt that the post was wasted because it’s essentially a “judge not” post (with verses that I can throw back at you as well!); a topic irrelevant to the document at hand because never did the writers argue that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Salvation is ultimately God’s power to grant and despite the fact that God granted the church to declare loose what must be declared loose, and bound what must be declared bound, we can never presume above His mercy. This is a position we have held for years. You must be confusing us with INC.
Other churches are defective meaning lacking in apostolic authority, yes. We can argue day in and day out whether Peter is a rock or a pebble, but we cannot conveniently drop the verse where Christ handed Peter the keys to gates of heaven. Christ did institute apostolic authority.
Kay
Dear Kay,
I am very sorry to have grieved you as you expressed in your response.I appreciate your frankness because I am a frank person, too.I hate using words to camouflage what really is inside me.
(1 Thessalonians 2:5)“For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloak of covetousness; God is witness…”
When I express something or anything it comes from my heart and it is the best of my knowledge and belief.I maybe wrong in my perceptions sometimes, but I always make it a point that whenever I teach other people, must be 100% Biblical.It has been my attitude and practice not to allege anything especially against anybody if I do not have sufficient evidences to prove it.
(Isaiah 43:9)“Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and show us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say,It is truth.”
In the interest of truth and justice, at least, there must be two or three witnesses to be brought to testify in a given argument or dispute.The preceding verse requires witnesses.
(2 Corinthians 13:1)“This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”
It is not only normal, but sane, to love your faith — your church.But it is also wise and sane to be sure that your church or your faith is the true church and faith based on Scriptural truths.
(John 17:17)“Sanctify them through thy truth:thy word is truth.”
While I am discussing the truth in any given topic, I must tell you that not everything that I know can be injected on a particular topic.You said in your response that never did the Roman Catholic Church claim that there is no salvation outside the RCC. I hereunder copy what you said:
“I felt that the post was wasted because it’s essentially a “judge not” post (with verses that I can throw back at you as well!); a topic irrelevant to the document at hand because never did the writers argue that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.”
Dominus Iesus states that other churches (out of the Catholic Church) are not true churches, but merely ecclesiastical communities and therefore did not have the “means of salvation”.
If this does not mean that you are judging all churches outside of your alleged true church, is this camouflaged hypocrisy?Logic dictates that where there are no means of salvation, there is no salvation; and that is precisely what is meant by RCC authorities.Here is something I presume you do not know which was included your book “Religion Doctrine and Practice” by Francis B. Casilly page 355 this (see image below).
You said that my post was wasted.I am sorry you judged it hastily.It would have been better if you asked me if I have further proof to substantiate what I have written.You also said that it is a topic irrelevant to the document at hand, but in searching for the truth, you have to consider present and previous claims and teachings made by the Roman Catholic Church.It is just like taking something out from the whole context of a book or a set of teachings and not taking it out of context.
(Isaiah 34:16)“Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.”
In the fore cited verse, the Book of the Lord contains all the necessary elements of truths.They must be taken in context for the entire truth to be known.Hereunder, is a part of the question raised at the Second Vatican Council, and the corresponding response:
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS
OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH
SECOND QUESTION
What is the meaning of the affirmation that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church?
RESPONSE
Christ “established here on earth” only one Church and instituted it as a “visible and spiritual community”[5], that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted.[6] “This one Church of Christ, which we confess in the Creed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic […]. This Church, constituted and organised in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him”.[7]
In number 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium ‘subsistence’ means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church[8], in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth.
It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.[9] Nevertheless, the word “subsists” can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe… in the “one” Church); and this “one” Church subsists in the Catholic Church.[10]
If you believe in all your heart in the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church as defined and redefined in the Second Vatican Council, which I copied above, I hope you will understand me if I believe with all my heart in the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ written even in the official Catholic Bible.
In the above cited Lumen Gentium 8 (I do not want to judge that this is spoken in hypocrisy), it states that: the church of Christ is present and operative in other churches or ecclesiastical communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church…
Christ said:
(Matthew 12:30)“He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.”
How could you say that there is “no salvation outside the Catholic Church” and at the same time, teach as doctrine that, in other churches not in communion with your church, that the Church of Christ is present and operative?Is this a blatant hypocrisy or a blatant lie?
True Biblical love is not double faced or minded.
(Romans 12:9)“Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.”
We must not say that there is no salvation in other churches nor “they did not have the means of salvation” and at the same time appease them by saying that the Church of Christ is operative and present in them — the Holy Scriptures prohibits such hypocrisy.
(Romans 14:22)“Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.”
I am not confusing you with the Iglesia ni Cristo of Felix Manalo (Church of Christ by Felix Manalo) because you have the same erroneous and unbiblical stand.You both judge those outside your church, which is against the Gospel.God is the only one capable of judging those outside the true Church of God.(See image below)
(1 Corinthians 5:13)“God will judge those outside the church…” NIV
The history of your church proves that you have unfairly judged the ‘outsiders’.(See reference below)
Perhaps this cruelty is the result of your belief that there is no salvation outside your church.
This belief came to your church and that of Manalo’s church and other churches founded by man, because of gross ignorance of the Scriptures.
Even those who have not heard the Gospel can be justified by God by doing the “things of the law” written in their hearts.
(Romans 2:11-15)“For there is no respect of persons with God.For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another…”
God’s justice and compassion can not be limited by man, nor by any church!
Just to give you some food for thought (which I hope is welcome by the impression I had of the kind of person you are), is it true that “This Church, constituted and organised in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him (7) In number 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium ‘subsistence’ means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church[8], in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth.”
1.“Governed by the successor of Peter”
Was Peter the successor of Christ? Or Paul?
(Colossians 1:24-25) “Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister according to the dispensation of God, which is given me towards you, that I may fulfil the word of God…”
2.‘subsistence’ means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements
Was there really continuity in the power and succession, as you claim?Here is a document to consider.For eleven years, your church (RCC) was governed by a very notorious pope.What happened to the continuity you are claiming?(See reference below)
I want you to note that this magazine came from inside the Vatican itself. That this pope is “one of the most notorious”, meaning, there were so many of them! Will it be alright if I say that the Roman Catholic Church is not the true Church of God?
May God bless and enlighten you.
EFS
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The Church of the Bible: The Only 100% True Church